devilmaycryfandomcom-20200222-history
Talk:Secretary
Devil May Cry 2, Enemy File — Secretary: "This beautiful artificial creature is created from Arius’s knowledge of magic and science." Reflist Yes, it needs references to the game so people know what's in it; not only does it have that in the navbox, but you did kindly add more. You don't need a subheading for a section if there's only one part to the section. All that does is artificially inflate your ToC and clutter your page. It looks sloppy, and having multiple headings with the same title is redundant to say the least. I think it's unreasonable to say the only references to the games can be made in the headings. And to your comment that every page needs a fiction section? Isn't that what the intro paragraph is for? Yes, if there's enough information, give it a Fiction section. If there isn't, don't force it. --Anobi 06:14, October 8, 2011 (UTC) :No, that's not what I mean at all. :Having just a "DMC2" header be the top header doesn't allow us to distinguish between gameplay info, like the costume, and actual plot, like the Lucia cutscene. The navbox does not serve this purpose, and would be completely useless in this respect for characters that appear in more than one game. It is also important to distinguish the story info for each character, no matter how small it is, so that readers can easily figure out what is the plot and what isn't. The ToC can easily be collapsed to only showing level 2 or level 3 headers, that's not a worry, at all. :The intro paragraph is not at all meant to be the fiction section, it is meant to be a quick and dirty description of what the character is. If the character's entire story is thrown in there, it's being done wrong. For example, Dante's lead should basically just say that he is the son of Sparda, and a renowned Devil Hunter. All of his history, abilities, personality, etc., should be covered in other sections. :There are multiple heading with the same title because the Secretary has both plot info in DMC2, and errata info in DMC2. Trust me, this formatting will be necessary for any of the articles with more things to cover (basically anything beyond DMC2), and there will be more of an aesthetic problem in dropping the standard format just because an enemy doesn't appear in several games.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully! 08:23, October 8, 2011 (UTC) ::If it appears in more than one game, it would have more than one navbox at the bottom, and I would not argue against using different headings for different games. ::If there is enough information, yes, add a Fiction section. Dante is a perfect example for that. But there isn't enough Fiction for this enemy type. It's an enemy type; for the fiction of it, see Lucia. There's no need to duplicate information on two articles when you only need it on one. If anything, this page really needs a Strategy section more than a Fiction section, since it's about an enemy, not a character. ::Actually, that this subject only appears in one game is a perfect reason /not/ to use redundant headers. This subject only appears in one game, and telling readers at every turn that the information is related to that one game is boring, annoying, and even insulting. Readers are smart; they don't need to be reminded at every header what game this is from when they know it's only from one game. Not only that, but we shouldn't make standard practice what Wikipedia tells us to avoid: Section and subsection headings should preferably be unique within a page ::There has to be a way to solve this so that everyone is satisfied. I'll muck around with some options on my Sandbox page and see if we can't find something we can all agree on. --Anobi 17:08, October 8, 2011 (UTC) ::And one more thing: In general, link only the first occurrence of an item. --Anobi 17:22, October 8, 2011 (UTC) :::We're not wikipedia, and wikipedia doesn't often deal with this sort of thing -- in fact, they usually delete the pages. Seriously, I've been working on the Digimon and Kingdom Hearts Wikis a lot while I've been away from here, and they have to deal with the same thing. This is the solution that has been found to work best. :::Again, simply putting "Devil May Cry 2" is inaccurate, as the information within is solely the fiction, not all possible info. If you absolutely refuse to have the second header (and I really don't see what the problem is, as they are very useful on the extended synopses and keeping a standard format makes things easier to keep track of and clearer for the reader), then the other option is the storylink template. It is a semi-citation that marks which episode/chapter/game a bit of synopsis comes from. However, if we decide we must use it on this page, then the responsible thing to do is to add it to all pages. So, either propogate the headers as we've been doing, or replace them all with storylinks. Personally, I love using the storylinks, since they allow greater freedom in how we cover things, but the headers help to set a visible date to the information within them, so I'm used to using both, together. However, if you don't like the headers, then they need to go across the wiki.20:28, October 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::I tend to agree with Kryten here. My thoughts: ::::* Firstly, not all readers may know that Secretaries appear only in one game, and that is DMC2. Not all visitors are demon-slayers, and even those who are familiar with the series may not know/remember that Secretaries come from DMC2, and not DMC4 for example. ::::* I see no problem with second heading. In fact, I like it - it makes things clear and orderly. ::::* I personally think that Fiction Story (BTW, what's with that name, everybody? "Story" sounds a lot better.) section should stay. Secretaries do play important, even if small role in the plot. They are different from, say, Frosts, which don't appear anywhere aside from gameplay and introducing cutscene. ::::* Please, don't mix Lucia and the rest of the Secretaries. For all intents and purposes, she is one, even if notable, Secretary, and defective (in both senses of the word) at that. ::::* I see no real need in starting using storylinking now. It isn't like I'm against the idea though. ::::* Nav-boxes should stay nav-boxes, and be primarily used for navigation. Not determining whatever the subject of the article belongs to a certain game. Definitely not. If anything, we should use something similar to Game template at khwiki. My signature is NOT short! 22:26, October 8, 2011 (UTC) ::Should the Lucia link be moved to "see also", then?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully! 00:21, October 9, 2011 (UTC) What if we moved the info in the intro paragraph to a "description" section, and re-wrote the intro? Could we include "Devil May Cry 2" in there, right at the top of the page, or do we need to write from in-world in the description as well? I've been writing as if even intro paragraphs are from an in-world perspective, but that may be my mistake. --Anobi 17:12, October 9, 2011 (UTC) :I edited the article, although I'm not satisfied with my version of it. I'm not sure what to do with Lucia's info: it kind of belongs to the page, and kind of not at the same time. I'm also tempted to move costume info to Trivia. :To Anobi: No, the style is good, it should stay. My signature is NOT short! 18:02, October 9, 2011 (UTC) ::Fiction needs to be in-universe, but nothing else does. ::I've reworked your edit a little bit, but I don't really see what the need is in separating the description from the lead. ::Also, I've always been wary of putting coding within the headers. It seems that it would be better to specify those games in the lead, rather than the headers.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully! 02:25, October 10, 2011 (UTC)